Episode 17: German UDS Ground Zero to Global: German UDS Takes Its First Steps

00:00:00: Hello and welcome to our podcast episode 18 "Send Campus to Cyber" where we explore the

00:00:16: both step and big visions behind building a new kind of university.

00:00:21: The German University of Digital Science has officially received approval from the ministry

00:00:26: and all master programs have been accredited.

00:00:30: That means it's go time.

00:00:33: So I'm very happy to talk with my co-founder Christoph Meinl about what does it mean for

00:00:39: us now in the next step.

00:00:41: So Christoph, how do you feel now?

00:00:44: Yeah, I think we both feel good because it was a long process, more than two years with

00:00:53: thousands of pages for application, explanations, development of concepts and it is really something

00:01:03: new.

00:01:05: One feels this if one speaks with people and explains in the first moment everything

00:01:09: says "okay, I understood, it's great" but then when he or she is closer looking to the

00:01:16: details they say "oh, how this can be done and how that can be done" a big problem is

00:01:23: teaching works.

00:01:25: So the people are convinced, they learn this during Corona, that teaching is possible.

00:01:30: But the university is much more than teaching.

00:01:34: And how one can bring this atmosphere, this community building, this interaction which

00:01:41: happens in a university to bring this in a virtual community around such a new university

00:01:50: like ours.

00:01:51: So if we just look back Christoph, what are the highest hurdles we just have to jump about?

00:02:00: Every time if you are on top of a hill you see the next hill which is larger.

00:02:07: So it's difficult to say, of course the discussion with the Wissenschaftsrat, with the Science

00:02:16: Council in Germany was an important step.

00:02:20: Also with discussing with the colleagues there about the experience and all the skeptics

00:02:28: feel the skeptics about such a new approach.

00:02:32: But I heard it was a long discussion.

00:02:35: But finally they agree and this gives us a possibility now to show whether it's a concept

00:02:44: that can be really turned into reality.

00:02:48: Christoph, I just remember the last interview in a magazine.

00:02:54: So you just mentioned that it was a long process, maybe too long.

00:03:00: What do you think?

00:03:01: What should be changed?

00:03:02: A little bit as every time in Germany things are too formalized.

00:03:09: Everyone is speaking no bureaucracy, no bureaucracy, but it starts with writing the many, many

00:03:16: pages of paper with concept.

00:03:19: It's only the concept.

00:03:21: So what is I think missing is a kind of trust in the people that want to implement something.

00:03:27: We both are old and long-year members in the university system.

00:03:35: We have experience in all the aspects, projects, leadership and others.

00:03:42: And this could eventually, this should give trust that when we have an idea and say, "Oh,

00:03:49: it would be good to bring now the universities into the digital age, that people trust us."

00:03:57: And in Germany, every time, the risk is over-emphasized.

00:04:04: And so I felt not much trust.

00:04:10: And this was a little bit disappointing because we can also make holiday instead of founding

00:04:16: a university.

00:04:17: So a little bit that the people say, "Okay, it's that they are doing, it's good.

00:04:23: They make experiments, they have long-year experience."

00:04:27: So it's a good starting point for such a really innovative project.

00:04:31: This was a little bit missing.

00:04:33: That brings us to another point, especially if we just talk about trust is the financial

00:04:38: support.

00:04:39: So do you think this is the main point that the people just don't have trust in such an

00:04:45: experiment like this new form of university?

00:04:50: Do you think on the many people we spoke and we tried to win to become, also to step into

00:04:57: the project, to support the project?

00:04:59: Also financially, because the formal heard and high, we are expected to have in a very

00:05:06: short time 20 professors.

00:05:08: And in a short time, typically it's difficult to win students, which would help us to finance

00:05:16: the professors by the institution fee.

00:05:21: So this was, I think, also a little bit typical German.

00:05:27: In the risky state, everyone say, "Oh, it's great to do it, but are not willing to support."

00:05:34: I'm quite sure in one, two years, when it worked and when we have proved, then I'll

00:05:39: recommend how we can support.

00:05:41: The support is needed in the beginning and not when it's run.

00:05:45: And you remember our German investor from US?

00:05:50: It was a completely other discussion.

00:05:53: Within two weeks, it was clear that he wants to see it, he wants to contribute.

00:06:00: And we explained and then ready.

00:06:04: Here in Germany, we had discussed, we had sent emails, we had invited people to join.

00:06:11: But very friendly, no one was willing.

00:06:14: That leads me to the next question because so after these two years, we just had a lot

00:06:19: of experience in this field.

00:06:21: So what do you think is now to identify the top three operational challenges we have now

00:06:27: and maybe during the next three or six months?

00:06:31: So to get it to run, we need students, we need students to create income.

00:06:38: And to be able to attract students, we need study programs and we need the professors

00:06:45: which teach the structured program.

00:06:48: Fortunately, during these two years, we had prepared this.

00:06:53: So we are not starting when we got to, we are not starting when we got recognition to

00:06:59: look who could become a professor at our university.

00:07:02: We start earlier and had already for the start of the university 15 professors and young

00:07:10: engaged people which are professors, experienced also famous people which became professors

00:07:18: at our university.

00:07:20: So this is what we now need to turn into trust with the students, into the number of students

00:07:28: and into a real study business.

00:07:33: But there's I think the most important problem we have because that is who are the core target

00:07:38: audiences for the German UDS at this stage.

00:07:42: This is, it is really an innovation.

00:07:47: The one target group, of course, are students because we are a university and everyone knows

00:07:52: in the university, it's our study programs and students go to the university to become

00:07:57: educated.

00:07:58: This is also the case with us, the big differences, we can serve to students all over the world.

00:08:07: So we have to bring knowledge about our university to India, to China, to Indonesia, to Mexico,

00:08:15: to the other countries to attract students.

00:08:18: Attracting students is also not so easy because it is difficult to understand for the students

00:08:25: that they really digitally can be studied where they are, when they are.

00:08:30: We have, I think, an attractive financial model.

00:08:33: We have very small tuition, 7,500 Euro for one academic year.

00:08:43: And the students which have paid have access to all the materials over three years.

00:08:49: So they can define their own speed, whether they do the program in one year, whether they

00:08:55: take more time, because, for example, they have to work aside in two or three years.

00:09:01: So this is the one group.

00:09:03: With our innovation, that the modules in the study program also can be, can be, one can

00:09:11: enroll separately, independently from the study program, and only learn the mode of

00:09:17: generative AI or internet and network security.

00:09:23: This is a great offer for people which are in business, which have family and which want

00:09:30: to continue their education, to get a new job or to get a new position in the shop for

00:09:38: interest, to learn more about this.

00:09:42: And we do, at the end, give them not only a certificate, we give them a certificate

00:09:49: with credit points.

00:09:50: As a university, we can do this.

00:09:53: And this gives a kind of sustainability of the results of this continuing education,

00:10:00: because they can combine such micro-degree programs over a while and then come over and

00:10:08: say, now it's almost what I did is ready for an MBA or for a master.

00:10:14: We can recognize all this because it's a test.

00:10:18: Other universities can recognize this learnings.

00:10:24: And I think it is a new middle, I hope it becomes popular, because this is not so easy

00:10:31: understood, understandable, like I can study.

00:10:35: Yeah, but it's very interesting that you just pointed out other universities.

00:10:39: So that means, of course, it's not easy to get the market entrance, especially there

00:10:44: is high competition in this field.

00:10:46: What do you think?

00:10:47: What is the IQO?

00:10:49: So we were just asked every day, talking about what is the reason that we just choose the

00:10:55: German UDS.

00:10:57: What is the difference?

00:10:58: What do you mean?

00:10:59: The difference is, in Germany, the universities typically feel not responsible for continuing

00:11:07: education.

00:11:08: They concentrate on the young students.

00:11:11: This is different in other countries.

00:11:13: The Stanford Professional School is larger than Stanford University.

00:11:18: So this promise that a university takes care and is concerned about providing continuing

00:11:28: education with the latest knowledge, which is provided to the students, also to the people

00:11:35: which have their study five, 10 years ago finished, which now are in the profession.

00:11:41: This combined with the possibility to be absolutely flexible for learning.

00:11:49: One can do this after the work, one can do this before the work, one can do this in the

00:11:55: weekend.

00:11:56: There is a great freedom in designing the learning environment, in combining the learning project

00:12:06: with daily work, with a daily family life.

00:12:12: This is an advantage which is provided by the digital technologies because it can be purely

00:12:18: digital done.

00:12:20: So if we just want to shape the long-term DNA of German UDS, what do we think, and this

00:12:25: is a discussion we have all days in our presidium, is what is the fundamental strategic decision

00:12:31: we have to make now for the future and for bringing us on the road?

00:12:38: Every time quality is the highest important, because it is a big trust that the students

00:12:48: come to a certain university.

00:12:51: So we have to prove to the student, eventually the parents pay for the fee or an institution

00:12:58: government foundation pays for their fee.

00:13:00: We have to give them the trust that we provide education on the highest level of stunts.

00:13:11: I think it is helpful, our name makes use of this with the German university, that when

00:13:19: you travel around the world, the German university and the German university has a good name

00:13:27: in the world.

00:13:28: So when we invite students from India or from Pakistan, from Indonesia, from the Arab countries,

00:13:35: from the South American countries, they all have a good understanding of a German university.

00:13:44: But it's not only German, Christoph, it's also, and we don't want to talk about this

00:13:48: now, maybe it's a podcast for next year or so, talking about the name University of

00:13:54: Digital Science.

00:13:56: So what is the difference to typical definition of science, or what do we mean with digital

00:14:02: science?

00:14:03: Science, I think it's very clear.

00:14:05: What we want to express with the digital science is the digital side of everything, not only

00:14:13: computer science.

00:14:14: We start with computer science study programs, but we also have in the starting situations

00:14:21: this transformation programs, digital transformation to educate people which are not computer scientists,

00:14:28: but which have to serve, digital problem have to, for example, implement in their companies

00:14:36: digital strategies to give them a basic and intellectual basis to do this in the right

00:14:43: way.

00:14:44: But of course, we are open and I hope as soon as possible, we can introduce more study programs

00:14:49: like e-energy or e-justice or e-public administrations, e-helps.

00:14:58: So every science and every topic, meanwhile, has a digital side and the digital side is

00:15:06: changing the basic understanding of this topic.

00:15:10: And in that way, we really can provide a university with a very broad view on the topics we are

00:15:18: dealing with.

00:15:19: Universities.

00:15:20: Yeah, that's an interesting point for us at all because talking about the digitalization

00:15:27: of education, that means also if you compare us with the competitors, so they have physical

00:15:34: campuses.

00:15:35: So what I think is the main challenge now for us to engage in a digital university culture.

00:15:42: So what we just want to do is we want to take the people by the hand and take the

00:15:46: taking them to the room and to the world society.

00:15:50: So what are the challenges there, Christoph?

00:15:52: Especially if we talk about communication.

00:15:54: And to get recognized, we also had a bachelor study program.

00:16:01: And it is also accredited.

00:16:04: But we decided not to start with a bachelor program.

00:16:09: We start with MBA programs, all together

00:16:12: with MBA projects and with master of science programs

00:16:17: with the understanding that students

00:16:21: need as a requirement to have a bachelor degree.

00:16:26: That means bachelor today, you can only

00:16:29: make on a campus university.

00:16:31: So they have campus experience.

00:16:35: So we think for starting point, it's

00:16:38: easier if they come with their campus experience

00:16:42: and now they choose a specialization in a master.

00:16:47: Then we believe that the digital program is much easier

00:16:51: because they have learned to study and other things.

00:16:55: I will not say that we in future will not

00:16:58: also offer the bachelor.

00:17:00: But for the starting point, I think it's good.

00:17:03: And what we have to do and we do this

00:17:07: in the beginning of the programs with our welcome weeks.

00:17:12: Two weeks where we offer the students a program not

00:17:16: for the teaching in their discipline they have chosen,

00:17:22: but in community building, bringing them together,

00:17:25: teaching them to use the tools.

00:17:28: In the back, we have two big digital tools.

00:17:32: This is a campus management system.

00:17:34: This is a learning management system.

00:17:36: And in the system, we integrate a lot of tools

00:17:40: for cooperation, for communication, for many, many things.

00:17:44: And this is very lively because every time new tools

00:17:51: come to became popular.

00:17:55: So we train the students in that we

00:17:58: hope that they connect to each other.

00:18:01: So that not only the students in one topic, which of course

00:18:05: in the modules have to cooperate,

00:18:08: have to work in a forum, have to do virtual projects,

00:18:11: but also over the boundaries of the programs

00:18:17: that they interconnect, which is other,

00:18:19: that they establish their network.

00:18:22: University is very important to help the students to develop

00:18:28: their professional network.

00:18:30: So we do all these things two weeks every day, eight hours.

00:18:35: And I think it is necessary.

00:18:37: And we both agree completely that without that it will not work.

00:18:46: It will only be for how to deduct the people, gifted people,

00:18:51: that they learn something.

00:18:52: But they need a university, a university feeling,

00:18:57: a university atmosphere, remembering later

00:19:01: on the virtual community they worked in.

00:19:04: And eventually also have this virtual community also in future.

00:19:08: Oh, that was a very good introduction to our next podcast

00:19:11: was one of our professors, Julia Fontaine,

00:19:13: talking about exactly that and about our virtual campus.

00:19:18: So I have two additional topics, Christoph,

00:19:22: what is also our topic each day.

00:19:25: One is we just got the accreditation and the registration

00:19:32: as a university.

00:19:33: And there are some difference between university

00:19:36: and the university of applied science.

00:19:38: And so for us, the focus is research.

00:19:41: So what do we do during the next months or the next period

00:19:46: to give us this performance?

00:19:49: And especially we are in a competition and a research

00:19:53: environment.

00:19:54: So what do we do in special for supporting this research

00:20:00: aspect?

00:20:01: So as already mentioned, we have 15 professors.

00:20:03: Each one is a specialist in one of the areas

00:20:09: where we are also active in teaching.

00:20:12: So meanwhile, we established five what we call research center.

00:20:18: Research center is every time a group of professors.

00:20:22: Professors can decide to which research center they

00:20:27: will become a member.

00:20:30: And then within this research center,

00:20:33: the scientific co-working is happening.

00:20:38: So this is a little bit interdisciplinary.

00:20:42: Although they all are AI specialists in the AI research

00:20:47: center, they are specialists of different activities in AI

00:20:50: and different methods and topics.

00:20:54: And so in the research center, they should work together

00:20:59: as soon as we have the permission also to have PhD students.

00:21:05: We will establish the PhD school in each research center

00:21:11: so that this group of professors also

00:21:14: teach and supervise the PhD researchers in that field.

00:21:20: So we have five such research centers, applied AI,

00:21:24: cyber security, advanced digital or extended reality,

00:21:30: digital transformations.

00:21:32: And now I forgot the fourth.

00:21:35: No, no.

00:21:36: The fifth, I forgot the fifth digital transformation.

00:21:40: And of course, the digital education.

00:21:46: This is something which combines and brings together

00:21:49: researchers from different areas and professors,

00:21:53: which is thinking and research in what we every day

00:21:58: do and what we every day are doing,

00:22:02: how this can be improved, how this can be measured,

00:22:08: assessed, how quality measure and systems can be done.

00:22:13: So this is a kind of reflection of what we are doing.

00:22:18: And a university is exactly that place

00:22:20: in the Humboltz understanding that research and doing

00:22:26: and teaching, the teacher and the students work together

00:22:31: on that, make common experiments, investigate

00:22:37: what is the best way, compare the different approaches.

00:22:41: And here I expect a lot of insights

00:22:46: and a lot of scientific activities

00:22:49: because these are really lively areas.

00:22:53: We are working and we are offering our programs.

00:22:56: - Christoph, we just thought about different ways

00:22:59: for a new private university.

00:23:01: And one step was not only thinking

00:23:04: if we just talk in the economic speech,

00:23:06: I'll be to see a typical university and students.

00:23:09: So we always thought about B2B.

00:23:12: And B2B means university as a service.

00:23:16: So what does it mean?

00:23:17: What is this new field talking about university as a service?

00:23:21: - For each computer scientist, for each IT person, it's clear.

00:23:26: This comes from the cloud, the cloud world,

00:23:29: infrastructure as a service, platform as a service,

00:23:32: software as a service, where you can,

00:23:34: when you want to run a program, you simply connect to a cloud

00:23:38: and then this program, you can run without a lot of experience

00:23:43: behind, without understanding how it's interblended.

00:23:47: And so what one can say is that we are a university,

00:23:52: the first university in Germany, Europe,

00:23:56: that provides university as a service.

00:24:00: What does it mean?

00:24:01: What we start to discuss is with other universities.

00:24:06: Universities often, campus universities,

00:24:08: a traditional one, often have the problem that a professor

00:24:13: was changing to another university.

00:24:16: But the students stay and the students need to be educated.

00:24:21: And then for the universities, there's a problem,

00:24:23: how, who should give the lectures,

00:24:26: who should offer the seminars for the enrolled students

00:24:30: in that program?

00:24:31: What we invite them is simply to connect to us.

00:24:37: Our lectures are online, so in each place

00:24:42: where the university is located, they can access us.

00:24:45: We have the quarter, we have organized our programs

00:24:49: in quarters, not in semesters.

00:24:51: That means every topic is offered two times a year.

00:24:55: So the students can immediately access,

00:24:58: the students can follow our modules,

00:25:02: the students get credit points.

00:25:04: So the students can continue their study,

00:25:07: although the university has a shortage

00:25:09: in the teaching personnel.

00:25:12: You can apply the same when many universities

00:25:17: offer the students for T-Folksfecher electives,

00:25:22: but the number of electives they can offer is too small.

00:25:27: They can simply enlarge this and allow the students

00:25:30: also to use our electives in their program.

00:25:34: And this goes up to the moments

00:25:37: that we can also agree with universities

00:25:40: very easily to implement dual degree programs.

00:25:45: This is very famous and common in university,

00:25:48: but in practice every time difficult to implement,

00:25:51: the students during one their study

00:25:55: reach the degree of two universities.

00:25:59: And this is done by following half this program,

00:26:02: half that program for when one university is digital,

00:26:07: it becomes very easy.

00:26:10: It's not even necessary that the student

00:26:13: learns the same topic.

00:26:14: And I expect this is for the most gifted students

00:26:18: around the world.

00:26:20: An interesting approach, studying in India,

00:26:23: studying in Mexico, and same time receiving

00:26:28: a degree from a German university,

00:26:31: from a German university of digital science.

00:26:34: It is a great chance and will help them

00:26:38: to push their career in speed

00:26:42: which was not known before.

00:26:44: - Christoph, what was the first step of our vision?

00:26:47: We want to change the educational system,

00:26:50: especially in the university as seen.

00:26:52: But so we just have a look about the influence

00:26:58: do you think we just can influence the educational policy

00:27:03: or the innovation processes with our light house here?

00:27:07: - It needs, it will take time.

00:27:12: Similar like it took time to replicate.

00:27:16: We thought it's a process of a half a year

00:27:19: or a three quarter of a year.

00:27:21: It was more than two years.

00:27:23: And I afraid similar has happened

00:27:25: with the people realize the possibilities which show us.

00:27:30: I will give an example.

00:27:31: The German system is so fixed like in concrete

00:27:36: that you only can study if you have a bit more.

00:27:44: You only can make a master if you have a bachelor.

00:27:48: In a modern educational system,

00:27:50: if someone is a specialist in an area

00:27:53: and he can prove to fulfill exams of a master

00:27:57: because he gets this experience during his work

00:28:00: not on the traditional educational way.

00:28:02: Why not give this person the degree?

00:28:07: I think in a modern world,

00:28:09: in a world where continued education becomes a real

00:28:13: integrated part of the professional life.

00:28:16: Nobody will understand the situation now

00:28:19: that many things are forbidden.

00:28:22: And there are other systems.

00:28:26: We both look very much also in the direction of US

00:28:31: where much more flexibility,

00:28:34: much more speed, much more innovation

00:28:38: can be find in the university system.

00:28:41: Like in Germany where all things are ruled out up to the end

00:28:46: and then it's so difficult to change the rules.

00:28:50: - Yeah, that's right.

00:28:51: - Yeah, so this was also an experiment

00:28:53: but we just did here.

00:28:55: So two presidents are just one is asking the other.

00:28:58: And now it would be interesting to improve that

00:29:01: if you just ask the same questions

00:29:03: and I'm sure that I just give the same answers

00:29:07: like you, Christoph.

00:29:08: And I think for us, it's very important.

00:29:12: You just mentioned that we are just old.

00:29:14: Yes, maybe we are old,

00:29:15: but what I see is that in our cognitive systems

00:29:19: is more power than ever talking about innovation,

00:29:23: talking about new ideas and thinking about

00:29:26: what does it mean to bring digitalization processes

00:29:31: into the educational system.

00:29:33: And this is, I think, a challenge

00:29:35: which is based on our ideas

00:29:39: or our experience about 30 years.

00:29:42: And so I can say all what we just discussed today,

00:29:47: I hope that is also for the listeners here

00:29:50: from this episode, interesting that they see

00:29:53: there is something growing up,

00:29:54: which is not only one university,

00:29:56: I think this is a university of the future of tomorrow.

00:29:59: And I think, and you said 20 years or 30 years,

00:30:04: then all the other universities

00:30:06: will just try to have the same or similar system like us.

00:30:10: - So whether it's 20 or 30 years, I do not know,

00:30:14: but I forecast that the considerable part of the universities

00:30:19: then follows the online mode.

00:30:24: Because we have no problems,

00:30:26: we see buildings around that the seminar room is too small

00:30:30: or that we cannot take more students

00:30:33: because the maximum is not great enough.

00:30:37: And in that sense, and so it's nice to be one of the first.

00:30:42: - I will promise that we will not precedence in 30 years,

00:30:45: but I hope that we just get older

00:30:47: and that we just take the hundreds

00:30:49: and that we just can see what we just started today.

00:30:52: Thank you very much, Christoph.

00:30:53: And I think it's great to work together on this field

00:30:57: and maybe we will just have the next podcast in one year

00:31:00: and then we will see what happens after this year.

00:31:02: Thank you very much.

00:31:03: So thank you very much to all the listeners

00:31:08: and if you just enjoyed this episode,

00:31:10: please take care about us.

00:31:13: There will be some more episodes during the next months.

00:31:16: Thank you very much.

00:31:18: See you next time, be careful.

00:31:19: Bye.

00:31:20: (upbeat music)