Episode 22: How to Fix the Digital Gender Imbalance?

00:00:00: The eighth of March is International Women's Day.

00:00:02: In light of this, we want to focus on the topic of women in digital science.

00:00:11: In the EU only about twenty percent of IT specialists are women.

00:00:16: This percentage has not changed much since two thousand fifteen.

00:00:21: Worldwide gap is even larger than some fields.

00:00:31: But more women are needed in digital science.

00:00:34: It's estimated that, in Europe alone the number of workers with advanced digital skills will need to double by two thousand thirty and More diverse and gender balanced teams are likely to produce better fairer And more inclusive digital technology.

00:00:51: So why does this gender imbalance persist?

00:00:54: And how can we support and empower women to pursue a career in digital science?

00:01:00: Having me shed light on this question is Professor Dr.

00:01:03: Marin Borkert, professor at the German UDS and head of research group Digital Entrepreneurship & Management.

00:01:10: So welcome Marin!

00:01:11: I think that best way is introduce yourself before i just take such too much time to introduce you.

00:01:17: so it's very interesting experience.

00:01:19: so Marin please introduce yourselves.

00:01:21: Thank

00:01:23: you, Mike.

00:01:23: I'm very happy to be here!

00:01:25: Well...I am a digital entrepreneurship and management at the German EDS.

00:01:33: It's in my competence and great pleasure to build up the E-College for transformative entrepreneurship.

00:01:40: This is also one of the perspectives I bring when we are talking about how can address this gap, when it comes to gender balances in IT specialists but also particularly with cybersecurity.

00:01:54: Before that as a professor at VP Research for five years started at the University of Bamberg left Germany for working abroad.

00:02:06: Also an international organization, so I also have and bring in international perspective on the international expertise.

00:02:14: .I worked in digital entrepreneurship and digital transformations ,also transnational entrepreneurial programs.

00:02:22: um yeah i'm very happy to be here and talk with you about this important topic.

00:02:29: now it's fine as a president to have you here at the university, Marin.

00:02:34: But first, uh... The name of the University is German University of Digital Science and this part our discussion today.

00:02:41: so what's your definition of digital science?

00:02:45: My definition of Digital science!

00:02:47: Oh So as I said that worked as a VP research And um..I engaged and discuss research really from multiple perspectives.

00:02:59: You know that particularly in Germany, we have a strong divide between qualitative methods and quantitative method.

00:03:05: I think this kind of division is outdated for quite some years now.

00:03:11: The question isn't whether to apply qualitative or quantitative methods Or how can combine them.

00:03:18: mixed-methods as another approach export for many, many years.

00:03:26: But now having a look on how society and economy evolved all our interactions communications been more and more digitalized?

00:03:34: The question is really How can we bring the scientific inquiry to this to this digital world And not rely on methodologies that has been developed in the nineteenth century?

00:03:50: these methodologies need Digitalized need to be made more current, needs to be based in a new paradigm for understanding what research can really look like with our hybrid world.

00:04:05: With more and more activities happening both.

00:04:10: in the analog world and digitally on the same time.

00:04:13: And this needs to be grasped, embedded into a thorough theoretical context so that we can come up with new insights... ...and really have a look at what provokes what kind of phenomena?

00:04:29: And not dissolve in multiple variables or factors which might potentially have any impact on the phenomenon that we see evolving.

00:04:41: Okay, that brings me to the topic of the upcoming day.

00:04:45: women's Day on this week or next week means as I have outlined The problem is that We just have too few Women in digital science.

00:04:56: and what are some courses for?

00:05:00: Yeah well the imbalance Is very often explained As a pipeline problem Right?

00:05:06: So there's less women and less girls interested in what is called the natural sciences or the hot sciences, you know.

00:05:16: And less in IT are technical subjects even at school on.

00:05:20: this translates into more and more woman dropping out of the technical fields later on.

00:05:26: but That is not just a pipeline problem.

00:05:31: The problems are much more structural, and as we can see from studies of European researchers but also international reports by the EU and UNESCO there's very many social-cultural factors impacting on the gap that we witness today.

00:05:54: There are outdated narratives about tech being still framed as a male discipline, stereotypes that discourage... girls early on and influence later their career decisions.

00:06:09: I remember I have two daughters, it's my personal pleasure and vendetta to expose them to digital technologies early-on.

00:06:19: so i remember i brought them to robotics camps.

00:06:22: yeah And one of... It was.. So many teams were just purely male One.

00:06:28: the first question My then six year old daughter asked is why are all robots either black, gray or white.

00:06:37: We are the colors you know.

00:06:40: why doesn't have to be so sterile?

00:06:43: And what kind of the materials are we using?

00:06:45: Can we not build robots out of material that we have at our home.

00:06:50: Then, we started a little journey and tried to discover what can actually be built... We had two paths used by us ...and we bought a snickering robot from it.

00:07:01: This is the nicest way saying there's ways but they're not institutionalized.

00:07:07: There's lots you could do in order change them.

00:07:10: In

00:07:11: addition to the discussion with your daughter, what are you personal experience of being a woman in digital science and how did it shape your motivation for becoming a professor?

00:07:22: Oh, yeah.

00:07:24: That's a good question and it is very nice questions because there are many ways of answering that can be very short or I could also open up little bit.

00:07:36: so i would love to say that I have always been supported in this past but not the truth.

00:07:43: if you're women in digital science teaches two things resilience radar.

00:07:53: You spot bias very quickly and then you either come up with good approaches, solutions to address these biases and outsmart them or you don't.

00:08:06: so for me it always has been quite a journey under navigation of finding my way through the conditions that I have with regard to the talents and the expertise, and this strong willingness... ...to pursue my path in my career.

00:08:23: So what do you think?

00:08:24: if we just think about a woman who is interested for becoming a professor?

00:08:31: What advice would it take her as a professional in fields like digital science?

00:08:41: Well, one of the first thing that I would like to say two girls and women is And To be honest much more even to the rest of this society in the situation.

00:08:54: I think we should stop telling girls and woman to be braver.

00:09:00: Women are brave, girls are brave.

00:09:02: They're already brave because they're living the conditions that we have created.

00:09:09: I think it's time to tell institutions... ...to be fairer.

00:09:14: So what does it mean for the institutions?

00:09:17: The government should do more or some other directions.

00:09:21: What is your first step, especially behind all of these conditions you just named before?

00:09:28: Governments and organisations are already addressing this problem.

00:09:32: It's not something that was discovered.

00:09:38: You said at the beginning that figures have never changed since in year two Right?

00:09:44: So we know that this problem exists.

00:09:46: And there are a couple of initiatives addressing these problems, but it's not only a matter of initiative.

00:09:53: It is also a measure for budget.

00:09:55: If you want the change We have to structurally incentivise and fund it right?

00:10:02: Um...and we also have create conditions in which women can thrive.

00:10:06: I must say starting at the German UDS Which is a hundred percent online university I see a lot of potential for women to do just that because society gives them the role, you know... ...the caring person or the nurturing person.

00:10:24: So they take care of their kids and provide care for other family members.

00:10:31: They take care at home And work!

00:10:35: And still want find ways how to educate themselves be able to capture the opportunities as well that this digital transformation provides them.

00:10:48: We know they all need double the size of people working in IT, right?

00:10:55: From ten million to twenty million and twenty thirty.

00:10:58: So it's a chance!

00:11:00: This is your opportunity.

00:11:01: The opportunity is opening up right infront our eyes.

00:11:04: so can we find women who can then benefit from, for example a flexible education system that allows participation and allowed qualification so they can address these challenges.

00:11:22: And close the gap.

00:11:23: not close but contribute to closing the gap and provide future of themselves and their families.

00:11:30: But this is good view on... point of the question and condition.

00:11:36: So what does it mean especially for digital science?

00:11:39: Is there a special career step or development behind that to get more women into the digital sciences career aspect?

00:11:53: Well, I like... There is already lots out there but I'm a fan of pink hackathons, you know?

00:12:04: But we cannot stop there.

00:12:06: It needs to be structuralized and it needs both the education system but also the workplace culture because if people who are... advocating for you, as the female expert.

00:12:25: It needs access to funding and access to budget.

00:12:29: And it also needs work-life compatibility.

00:12:33: So I think there's a couple of dimensions that we need to tackle together in holistic approach.

00:12:38: if he really would like to address this gap?

00:12:42: Yeah but

00:12:43: i agree with what you just mentioned.

00:12:45: who should be responsible?

00:12:49: Well, we all

00:12:50: are.

00:12:51: Yeah!

00:12:52: You know what happens?

00:12:53: We just talk about it and say yeah I should be responsible for that but i think especially in this topic... ...I think some people who take responsibility or how do you think can go on to the next year so they will have changes which is remarkable.

00:13:13: In these dimensions we need to identify responsibles allocate the responsible or competent budget in order to address these changes, right?

00:13:23: Of course.

00:13:24: Because we do want half of change and have opportunities.

00:13:29: as you see now it's only for example coming from entrepreneurship I can tell that receive funding is only two point three percent that goes to female founders .

00:13:39: Two point three per cent are you kidding me!

00:13:44: It's a lot isn't low.

00:13:48: So this is a kind of opportunity mistructure that we are having, so and these translates also into a gap not only in terms in novitiveness and a lack of competitiveness.

00:14:07: And I think this is something that the university or the University Society needs to understand, at The University To Address?

00:14:15: It's very interesting point.

00:14:17: so what does your personal experience say?

00:14:21: This says data two-point three percent yeah but it doesn't mean in the system, or is it a problem of self-confidence for researchers?

00:14:37: Women researches are what's behind this scene.

00:14:39: What is the problem?

00:14:41: because its so crazy?

00:14:43: at least?

00:14:44: yeah well I can tell you very often if you enter room as woman in digital science and digital profession there no other women.

00:14:59: You are the only one.

00:15:01: And it's not easy to just continue and not withdraw.

00:15:07: so something that I would like to recommend to everyone is If there's no one else, and there is no seat at the table Bring your own chair Build you're on company build your own program Find the projects that are dear to you, with whom can have an impact.

00:15:33: What we don't want is a female voice on stage but I think it's important to recognize these experts.

00:15:42: It's not the femaleized view of something.

00:15:46: You know, these are experts who are bringing their expertise to the table.

00:15:50: and believe me women Are so clever in smart in finding opportunities?

00:15:56: In finding ways.

00:15:57: And there is enough research to show this.

00:15:59: because from this two point three We see funding that goes to woman.

00:16:04: we can also see that women have an eighty percent higher revenue rate from every euro that they were given.

00:16:14: So, they receive less funds but convert them into revenue and profit at a much higher rate than their male

00:16:24: peers.".

00:16:25: So now things about this... You

00:16:27: know?

00:16:28: Yeah it's an interesting point!

00:16:30: And so what do you think?

00:16:31: Do women have better experiences now then maybe a couple of years ago?

00:16:40: I think the awareness have changed.

00:16:42: Okay, yeah i think The awareness has changed and that all those things there is a couple of Supporters out there okay?

00:16:51: There's more networks also female networks And mentors That you can rely on.

00:16:57: but what would really like to advise every woman or girl?

00:17:02: To come forward and make contact and don't hesitate to articulate and communicate what they're interested in and want.

00:17:13: They can rely on mentors, also come to us or me!

00:17:18: And address the e-colours of transformative entrepreneurship.

00:17:21: This is about.

00:17:23: we do want this change and be part of a solution and implement it.

00:17:29: The question really how could build up an atmosphere that encourages women?

00:17:37: it's our base and so maybe we can change something in this direction.

00:17:44: And I see that, but just having the stuff more than fifty percent of women... But in the professorship i think.. We have a challenge!

00:17:54: So what is your view on how German UDS Empowering Women are doing?

00:17:59: What do they do especially in the field of Professorships?

00:18:04: to address gender equality in all of the interview questions, for example.

00:18:12: Why not?

00:18:12: if we are recruiting a professor discussing, you know that there's a very high percentage of dropout woman and the gap when it comes to women in IT.

00:18:26: And in cybersecurity just twenty percent worldwide right?

00:18:29: So then ask your professor in personal interview question...in a personal interview situation what can you do in order to address this gap and see how they react?

00:18:40: because And I'm not saying they need to have all the answers fixed and bring these solutions already.

00:18:49: But at least, there must show a willingness and an openness in transparency to explore this questions... ...and develop new approaches together with the German UDS because that's what we want to have!

00:19:01: We want it to impact.

00:19:03: The European Union also depends on it.

00:19:07: We cannot continue building a world where Eighty percent is relying on the male workforce, while we know that majority of people in this world are women.

00:19:18: We're leaving out all these talents!

00:19:21: What kind?

00:19:22: What

00:19:22: can you do with vision or mission?

00:19:24: Do I think there should be more statements in this direction and what to do directly especially if I just think about presidents and leadership concepts so...

00:19:38: support initiatives and projects, for example.

00:19:41: You know that with regard to the higher education initiatives we were thinking about developing modules regarding cybersecurity entrepreneurship where women are particularly tackled.

00:19:56: I mean not women are tackled, but the question of how can we empower women to become entrepreneurs in this cyber security area.

00:20:09: And I think that is extremely important and open to provide an open source material.

00:20:16: so it's not only the students from Germany who are benefiting from it or perhaps even a wider audience could benefit from insights into building up this cybersecurity entrepreneurship pipeline.

00:20:32: This is just one example, but in general yes I definitely think it would be good to have some kind of ethics when it comes to encouraging women in IT and IT professions also and how to collaborate with each other, And How To Interact With Each Other in order to have a safe space where everyone really across all kinds of differences when it comes to cultures.

00:21:06: Education and socialization in this world has the feeling that they can come forward.

00:21:12: What

00:21:14: do you think are the attitudes and bias we need for this next step?

00:21:21: So is it part of the curricular, so as mentioned before.

00:21:26: I think there's lots interesting aspects in your answer but what about changing attitudes during last years or what do you thing are the changes and biases.

00:21:43: So I mean, oh let me think through your question.

00:21:52: Of course, what I would like to see is a holistic approach.

00:21:57: So to have something addressed in the policy with very clear statement and then translated throughout various opportunities that we had through our structures you know?

00:22:07: In curriculum or hiring processes.

00:22:11: but really sit together think about how can be set this up And it translates even into teaching rooms.

00:22:18: right.

00:22:19: It relates perhaps when.

00:22:22: Now, I'm thinking about what can do myself in order to sustain and contribute.

00:22:29: Perhaps have a KPI even for the E-College of Transformative Entrepreneurship have at least one woman on the founder cycle.

00:22:44: So, you know I've very clear KPIs for creating this kind of pipeline and bringing women encouraging them to start up their own careers in that company's area.

00:23:01: besides the German UDs it would be good also think about outreach.

00:23:07: what can university, which is an international online University do in its concrete surroundings.

00:23:17: In Potsdam, in Brandenburg, in Berlin, in Germany and Europe to contribute to closing this gap?

00:23:28: And reach out to funders even female funders.

00:23:32: reached out to female VC funds you know, reach out to any kind of funds that support the mission this university stands for and create an ecosystem.

00:23:45: That is really supporting us in addressing this challenge um and closing the gap.

00:23:50: I think This would be something that i would love To see and love to contribute too.

00:23:55: so let's come back to The AIDS of March uh to the Women's Day.

00:23:58: And So if You just have a chance Give A Statement.

00:24:03: women who are starting their careers in digital science.

00:24:08: So two sentences, what would be your statement?

00:24:13: I think my statement will be you have everything that it needs... ...in order to start a career in IT and to start the career in cybersecurity.

00:24:23: just found the conditions and the support is that you need In order to pursue the past.

00:24:30: Okay, thank you Maaren for participating in this podcast and offering your fascinating backgrounds.

00:24:37: There are a few on these different topics.

00:24:39: I think it was not the last time that we will just have a broadcast.

00:24:43: there were lots of topics.

00:24:45: Now with just...I think We did very good preparation for those aids of March and Women's Day.

00:24:53: Thank You Very Much.

00:24:55: Thanks For Having Me.