Episode 4: IT Structure of the Digital German UDS and Education in Metaverse

00:00:00: [MUSIC]

00:00:15: Welcome to the fourth episode of From Campus to Cyber presented by

00:00:20: German University of Digital Science.

00:00:22: I'm Professor Dr. Mike Fritzelsen and today we are driving into the digital heart

00:00:27: of our university with a very special guest, Dr. Jan Renz.

00:00:31: Jan is CTO at the German UDS.

00:00:33: He's here to share valuable insights into the functionalities and distinctive features

00:00:38: of the IT infrastructure and the rule of meta-worth in the educational system.

00:00:43: In today's episode, Jan will describe our technical requirements to operate the

00:00:47: digital university and what are the main challenges for modern IT infrastructure in companies.

00:00:53: Beyond that, we will discuss the development of virtual environments in universities.

00:00:57: Welcome Jan.

00:00:59: Welcome Mike.

00:01:00: You are an integral member of our university who oversees the technical backgrounds of our

00:01:04: German UDS.

00:01:05: Jan, before we delve into the IT infrastructure of the digital university,

00:01:09: give us a brief overview of your academic and non-academic highlights.

00:01:14: Yeah, I think that's one of the benefits I do have that I have both academic and non-academic.

00:01:19: Like Parst, I spent 10 years at the CTO of an media agency doing online advertisement,

00:01:26: online system, document management systems, content management systems.

00:01:31: And I also in that time lived through some technical disruptions.

00:01:36: So one of my companies was doing, for example, for a large 1000 Bavarian car producer,

00:01:43: a technology that would send you pictures of your car that you're going to buy on your

00:01:48: phone, on your feature phone.

00:01:50: So we developed like a year optimizing that technology and then the iPhone came out and

00:01:55: all the technology we could throw away basically.

00:01:58: And after 10 years in the industry, I went back into the university to the Haseb-Latten

00:02:04: Institute.

00:02:05: That's where I joined the team of Professor Meinl and we started to build solutions for

00:02:11: online learning.

00:02:12: So I spent roughly 10 years in building online learning systems.

00:02:15: And my research focused on optimizing the technology part of that systems to really fit the user

00:02:21: needs and give them a really good learning experience.

00:02:25: Jan, you have a lot of experience in this field.

00:02:27: So how does the digital university model differ from traditional in personal education?

00:02:33: I mean, it's in the name.

00:02:34: So it's digital, it's virtual.

00:02:38: And I think that's not a value in itself.

00:02:41: So I think the important thing is to understand what do we want to achieve and what are the

00:02:46: possibilities we do get by being digital, by being virtual.

00:02:51: I love teaching in small groups.

00:02:54: I like project-based teaching.

00:02:56: I actually wrote a paper about that and I found out in the HPI that the project-based formats

00:03:02: we've done where the formats were the most outcome and that were most liked by the students

00:03:08: as well as the teachers.

00:03:10: I think the benefit of digital learning, also what we've done in the HPI, is that you can

00:03:17: gain a larger amount of flexibility in different spaces so you can be everywhere.

00:03:23: You can learn at the time when you want to learn.

00:03:26: And what we also see, and that's when we're going to talk about virtual worlds later,

00:03:32: what we're seeing is a rapid transformation in the world, how we can design digital spaces

00:03:38: and moving and living and learning in that digital space is, I think, will make a huge difference

00:03:45: in digital learning.

00:03:47: So beyond that, there must be a broad technical requirement to operate this digital university.

00:03:54: So what are the fundamental technical components to run such a digital university like the German UDS?

00:04:02: I think you have to separate into two different parts.

00:04:05: So one part is all the online learning platform and Tom has been here in this for first

00:04:10: and talked about how the platform works and what we do there.

00:04:15: And the second part is the headquarters.

00:04:17: So right now we're recording this in the cloudhouse in Potsdam in our German UDS headquarters.

00:04:23: And I think these are the two parts.

00:04:27: So first, having like this also virtual world where a lot of things happen in the cloud are built

00:04:32: for maximum flexibility, for maximum scalability, and then everything we do here on site,

00:04:39: on campus, on headquartered campus, where we basically take care of being super future-proof.

00:04:47: And independent who comes here, what company comes here, what students come here, summer school,

00:04:52: or winter school, or just the academic staff or the faculty staff, we can give them the technology

00:04:58: and the tooling they need to do whatever they want to do.

00:05:00: I think that's the core of the value of the headquarters is give them what they need so they can operate.

00:05:07: Basically, technology here is not something we do because we love technology,

00:05:12: but we do it because we love technology as an enabler to support our team and our staff to really build great things.

00:05:19: Yeah, that brings us to the next question.

00:05:21: So what are the platforms and tools essential for virtual learning and administration behind that?

00:05:28: So being like a startup university basically and having a small team,

00:05:34: we decided to go for things we can buy on the market for large parts.

00:05:38: So go for Microsoft 365, go for Azure, go for the Kubernetes on prem.

00:05:46: But beyond that, we also have like all the things where we know that we're going to have customer research

00:05:53: and our own research, that's for example tooling on making groups, tooling on online coding,

00:05:59: and exploring virtual worlds, that's parts where we want to have like a full ownership also about our digital space.

00:06:08: And beyond, so that's the platform part and you can go back to Tom's podcast episode.

00:06:14: And then all the things you need to operate like this building.

00:06:17: And what I love about the building here is that it's built digital first.

00:06:23: So you come here, you have your token, you go into your room, your room is booked for you.

00:06:28: There will be a sensor, the sensor will check if the climate in the room is good for you to work.

00:06:33: You will have your computer which is automatically in the network, you have all the tooling.

00:06:38: So we have like this basic foundation of all the tools or step needs to really communicate, collaborate and do research.

00:06:48: On the same time, we give everyone, both the teachers, the professors, all the flexibility they need

00:06:55: because we don't want to lock them in or constrain the possibilities in terms of how they use their digital possibilities.

00:07:04: So they can go for example with teams which we provide.

00:07:08: If they're not happy with teams, we have some people who know we're going for Zoom.

00:07:13: So they're going for Zoom, same with whiteboards.

00:07:16: So we have different whiteboards, possibilities like Dion or Miro.

00:07:23: And I think that's also part of our research being a university which mainly, nearly exclusively only operates in the digital space.

00:07:33: We also have to look at how does the tooling influences the learning outcomes, the learning experience.

00:07:41: And that's the level where I think we have the possibility of being very small and agile to also research while we're doing research

00:07:49: and research while we're doing teaching.

00:07:51: And that's I think going to lead to a lot of iteration, a lot of changes, a lot of things where in two years we're going to say,

00:07:58: "Oh, that was wrong, but that's totally fine. Let's make arrows. Let's learn on the way."

00:08:03: And this will lead to actually a very good, I think, learning experience and very good outcome for our students in the future.

00:08:11: Jan, we know that there are a lot of people skeptical about this development of digital transformation.

00:08:17: And so, for example, my vision was paperless offers and offices without direct order from offices and so on.

00:08:29: And so what are the main challenges in your opinion?

00:08:33: The main challenge clearly is not the technical part.

00:08:36: So there are a lot of technical solutions out there.

00:08:39: It's amazing how fast technical things have evolved and improved in the last, let's say, 20 to 30 years,

00:08:46: alone what I have experienced in my life.

00:08:49: Starting with a father who actually coded on pinch cards to something where now the amount of CPU I have in my computer

00:09:00: is something that I as a computer scientist, I don't need that much computer power.

00:09:05: Still, I have it. And I think the main challenge actually is the human in that part.

00:09:12: So you said your example of making everything paperless in this university.

00:09:18: And it can easily give you systems which will scan all the stuff.

00:09:22: And we have all these devices with these digital pens where you can...

00:09:26: But still, you have to change the mind not only of you, but of the whole staff and also of the people externally.

00:09:33: So you have to get electronic bills which now in Germany is like a law.

00:09:38: And so we have to get them and have to also issue them.

00:09:41: But this is like our thing about technology is nothing if you can get the awareness

00:09:46: and also the buy-in of the people to go that way with us.

00:09:51: And that's I think the core also of a lot of what we can research and educate in the future.

00:09:57: I'm happy that we agree in this point, Jan, and that my vision will be realized during the next three years.

00:10:04: How do you ensure data security and privacy for students and staff?

00:10:08: Because this is a very important point also in the discussion in the society.

00:10:13: Okay, the first thing here is like how do we build our systems?

00:10:17: Where do we host our systems?

00:10:19: What are the obligations we give to our vendors when they deal with PII?

00:10:25: And that's just like basic work. That's easy.

00:10:29: I know we are very aware of data privacy issues, of security issues.

00:10:35: We take care that we do have vendors and partners and configurations and policies and everything we do.

00:10:42: So if you go down in the headquarters and you will see people who say,

00:10:48: "Oh, why do I have to like sign again now with my second factor? This happens like every day?"

00:10:53: Yes, it happens every day because we have to make sure that you and your device has not been stolen.

00:10:58: So that's this trade-off in between usability and security.

00:11:03: And so there's this technical part we take care, but also there's like the awareness part.

00:11:08: And I think that's the most critical part.

00:11:12: How do we actually make all our staff and all our students aware of how to deal with both their personal data,

00:11:22: but as well as their devices, their code, and also for both parts, for just being a consumer of services?

00:11:30: So what happens if a shared document cannot share it as most restrictive as personal, but also if it builds systems?

00:11:38: So how do I create systems that are zero trust?

00:11:42: How do I create systems that are most data privacy aware that they produce and compute as less data as possible?

00:11:53: And I think in Europe and especially in German we are very aware of these topics.

00:12:00: And I think this then has to be balanced out with still thinking about the possibilities.

00:12:05: And I think that's a huge benefit we have here in Germany that we can build the systems,

00:12:12: but we would not start with building large data silos and collecting all the data we might need in the future

00:12:20: because this would be illegal in Germany, actually in the whole European Union.

00:12:25: But we would start to think, okay, what data do we need?

00:12:28: And this is like we can make systems and build systems that give a benefit, but still not taking this on the data of the user without their permission,

00:12:39: but always have like very clear communication and clear data policies.

00:12:44: Jan, as a virtual and digital university, we must have some ideas for the development in the metaverse.

00:12:55: So of course the transforming education needs some new developments or maybe metaverse.

00:13:03: And I know that you are an expert on this field and I think you wrote your thesis about this too in some kind.

00:13:11: So can you explain what the metaverse is and why it's relevant for the educational system?

00:13:18: So my expertise is on infrastructures and education and what I say in my thesis basically is like we do have to care about first the basic infrastructure

00:13:29: and then we can think about human centric putting extra value on there.

00:13:34: And I mean we're both old enough so we've seen like second life and we've seen Google Lens and a lot of topics come and go.

00:13:41: I think there are two things here if you look at metaverse.

00:13:45: The first thing is I understand it as a room of opportunities and things you can build so easily which would have huge resources you would need if you do it in the real life.

00:14:02: So if you looked at what we presented at the opening at the CloudHouse and the Gemini DS, that was something that three people basically built in a few weeks

00:14:13: and that was outstanding.

00:14:15: Another thing, this is the most important thing about what we see like in all the metaverse scope right now is the democratization and the easier tooling of building things there.

00:14:30: And I'm not going to buy in of everything we do going to be virtual and in the metaverse in two years, probably not.

00:14:38: But probably some things are so I have two levels here.

00:14:42: The one level is the meta level of the metaverse.

00:14:46: So I understand that there's something going on which is changing rapidly where devices becoming cheaper.

00:14:53: One thing, look at the device world.

00:14:57: So we have actually I think this week the Apple device came to Germany officially.

00:15:03: We have the META devices so we have like this.

00:15:06: We want to deal with what is the entrance barrier.

00:15:09: How simple do we make it for people to go to the digital world?

00:15:12: Do we have to buy the 3000 euro device? Do we have something for 500?

00:15:17: The important thing is getting much more simpler,

00:15:19: it's getting much more cheaper.

00:15:21: And still it's important to understand

00:15:24: that it's not the optimal solution for everything.

00:15:27: So what we definitely not gonna do here

00:15:30: is we're not technology driven.

00:15:32: So we do nothing because it's an awesome technology.

00:15:36: We do something because we believe in,

00:15:38: it has a certain amount of possibilities.

00:15:42: And that's definitely the case for the metaverse.

00:15:46: And the second chance here is as we're having

00:15:50: like this study groups and this specialized master,

00:15:53: that we can have groups of people

00:15:55: who have the same hardware or the same like accessibility

00:16:00: to hardware so they can both be a consumer

00:16:02: as well as a producer.

00:16:04: So we actually can have surroundings and settings

00:16:07: where we can find out how can this look like?

00:16:10: How can this look like in a company in two to three years?

00:16:14: What works with collaboration?

00:16:16: What works with communication?

00:16:18: Where do you wanna go fall back?

00:16:20: What will your avatar look like?

00:16:22: There are so many questions that are important

00:16:24: on how communication and collaboration

00:16:27: will look like in a virtual space.

00:16:29: And we have a perfect like lab in terms of the university

00:16:34: in whole is a lab in my understanding.

00:16:37: And I'm really thrilled to watch what will happen there

00:16:41: and then the next let's say two to three years.

00:16:45: - So very interesting.

00:16:46: And I think we agree that we just have to integrate

00:16:51: this virtual campus in our German UDS.

00:16:55: So what are the steps are taken to ensure

00:16:58: the virtual campus and user friendly

00:17:00: and accessible to all students?

00:17:03: How can we just imagine it?

00:17:04: Can you give us a short example?

00:17:06: How do you think it could work for the first steps?

00:17:10: - Okay, there's the technology and the accessibility part

00:17:13: and then there's like the conceptual part.

00:17:15: I think on the technology part, we do have devices.

00:17:19: We do have to have devices for students.

00:17:22: We do have the infrastructure to play out.

00:17:24: We do have the knowledge about how to be built virtual spaces.

00:17:27: But the more important thing is as we not start

00:17:33: on zero level, but we do have so less constraints

00:17:38: in this university.

00:17:40: And that's thanks also of you and the work of Christoph

00:17:43: and you that we said we are really open minded

00:17:46: and we don't have a legacy of, I don't know, 40 years.

00:17:50: We don't have so many people who do this and that

00:17:52: and we need to continue something

00:17:54: because otherwise this one would be pissed.

00:17:57: We can start everything we want to do.

00:17:58: We can throw away everything to do.

00:18:00: And then if we combine that with listening to our students

00:18:05: and let them build the world, they can engage us.

00:18:08: Let them build the world they can learn

00:18:10: and let them be like their own world builder.

00:18:13: I think this is just like enable them

00:18:15: and then they will enable the university

00:18:17: to give them a perfect surrounding.

00:18:19: - What's about the software behind that and so on?

00:18:22: So I've learned something about Unity and others.

00:18:25: So what is the development in this field?

00:18:28: - I mean, there's a very good tooling

00:18:30: and there is beside like some license issues, for example,

00:18:33: with Unity changing the license models.

00:18:37: I can tell a story from like a school project.

00:18:40: We probably also gonna invite to that podcast

00:18:42: in one of the next episodes.

00:18:43: And they had like school project work last week

00:18:47: here in our headquarter.

00:18:49: And they built like in virtual avatar

00:18:52: in a virtual world with life

00:18:55: scanning of their faces in one week.

00:18:58: And I think this is really amazing.

00:19:00: And this is what happening is that everything

00:19:02: is getting such more simpler and faster.

00:19:06: And we can leverage from all the things

00:19:08: that happened, for example, in the gaming world.

00:19:11: This is where Unity comes from.

00:19:13: If you look at other parts, for example,

00:19:16: our setup here in the studio or also in the video studio,

00:19:20: the levering of all the toolkits and tool change

00:19:23: that comes from the online streaming world.

00:19:26: So that's I think the important mindset here to look

00:19:29: what is happening left and right?

00:19:31: What's happening in the gaming space,

00:19:33: in the AI space, in the video space?

00:19:37: And then let's think about like cherry picking.

00:19:40: What part of that concepts, what part of the technology

00:19:43: can we take and use it for online teaching,

00:19:47: for online collaboration in an educative environment?

00:19:50: - That brings me to my course last week,

00:19:54: Digital Transformation or German UDIS Academy.

00:19:57: And I just talked about

00:20:00: the rule of emerging technologies like AI, IoT,

00:20:05: blockchain and so on and modern infrastructure.

00:20:09: So, Jan, you're an expert on this field

00:20:12: and you're a CTO at the university.

00:20:14: So if we just take the view a little bit general,

00:20:18: so what are the key elements of modern IT infrastructure

00:20:21: for companies today?

00:20:22: - So first I want to repeat the advertisement block

00:20:26: for our free online courses running at

00:20:29: germanminusudis.academy.

00:20:31: - Very good, yes.

00:20:33: - And then back to the question of the key elements

00:20:35: of modern IT infrastructure.

00:20:36: I think that's connectivity, providing connectivity,

00:20:40: providing the possibility to do communication

00:20:42: and collaboration and then the specific tooling

00:20:45: is not such much of an issue if you can assure

00:20:50: like these three pillars.

00:20:53: Because that's the same you want to do in the building.

00:20:55: What do we do if we go in this building?

00:20:57: We connect with each other, we communicate, we collaborate

00:21:01: and if you separate it in the virtual and digital space

00:21:04: that these are the connections you have to make

00:21:06: to enable people in the virtual space.

00:21:09: - I think the main problem I just understand

00:21:13: is the infrastructure or the the the

00:21:15: the insurement of infrastructure in scalable

00:21:19: and adaptable points and integration tools.

00:21:23: So what do you think, how can we just give the companies

00:21:28: and also in our lectures and models this topic

00:21:33: to understand what is the difference between analog

00:21:36: and digital business models and IT infrastructure?

00:21:39: - So the first thing coming from a german perspective

00:21:44: is not try to be like and have this 100% solution.

00:21:48: So you always will have trade-offs

00:21:50: and it's okay to have trade-offs.

00:21:52: It's okay to go with the 80% solution.

00:21:56: Go with that, learn on the way, throw it away, change it.

00:22:00: I think that's what also cloud infrastructures

00:22:02: and everything digital really allows us

00:22:04: is to like start early, make, go make things, learn.

00:22:09: And that's also what we try here,

00:22:15: like being the german user as our own company is

00:22:19: learn on the way, iterate, throw away.

00:22:22: And one example maybe is to look at our platform

00:22:30: and decision.

00:22:31: So we decided to go with an open source platform

00:22:34: based on Open edX.

00:22:35: And on the one side, I mean we spent in the open HBI

00:22:40: and in the HBI we spent 10 years of building this platform

00:22:43: that was tailored to our needs.

00:22:46: And I still love it and I still love the mobile apps

00:22:48: which are open source and are really, really, really nice.

00:22:53: But same, we can do like 90% of that

00:22:56: with the open source software provided by Open edX.

00:23:01: And just recently like there's a new release

00:23:04: came out from Open edX and there was

00:23:07: new functionality introduced that fits us so good.

00:23:13: And we will introduce new things there

00:23:15: in the world of online coding and also other things.

00:23:18: And then other people can benefit.

00:23:20: So there is I think the most important things

00:23:22: is in the digital world, don't hesitate, get started,

00:23:26: learn on the way and then find out

00:23:30: where do you wanna be like an owner?

00:23:33: Where do you wanna explore things?

00:23:34: Where do you wanna research things?

00:23:36: And where do you just need your basic infrastructure

00:23:38: to operate and to work?

00:23:40: - Jan, back to the university.

00:23:42: So the advantage of the German UDS

00:23:44: is that we just can build up it on the green field.

00:23:47: And for most of the universities,

00:23:49: it's a very hard digital transformation process.

00:23:54: What advice would you give the universities

00:23:56: looking to transition to a digital or hybrid model?

00:23:59: - I think the difficulty for German universities

00:24:03: or like international universities is

00:24:05: the legacy and their large part of operation

00:24:08: they have to run.

00:24:09: And all the things have to be done on a daily basis

00:24:15: and I fully respect that.

00:24:17: And I have been involved in projects

00:24:19: where we had to pay out money to all students in Germany

00:24:24: within a few weeks and then every university

00:24:26: had to provide some data there.

00:24:28: So I could learn how difficult it might be.

00:24:31: And I think what I would propose here

00:24:38: is like a hybrid strategy.

00:24:40: So try to ease the pain of your day-to-day business

00:24:45: by, I don't know, go to companies or like DFN,

00:24:49: buy in managed solutions.

00:24:51: And on the same time, at the same time,

00:24:54: understand the university of parts on the university

00:24:58: as a lab and explore things.

00:25:01: Give possibilities to your teaching staff.

00:25:05: Just be an enabler.

00:25:06: What we learned in the Corona times is

00:25:10: we just provided basic communication infrastructure

00:25:13: and what all the teaching stuff and the faculty stuff

00:25:16: has done both in universities as well as in schools

00:25:19: in Germany has been amazing.

00:25:21: And this has been out of a pain because they had to

00:25:25: react and provide basic teaching.

00:25:29: But if you can give them environments

00:25:31: which have a good user experience

00:25:33: where you really have a good onboarding,

00:25:35: where you take the teachers on your hand

00:25:37: and explore them and listen to them.

00:25:40: And then if that exploration of the digital space

00:25:44: is not done out of a pain, but done out of joy

00:25:48: and curiosity, I think that's the only thing

00:25:50: you have to do, trust your staff and enable them.

00:25:54: - Jan, you have experience on both sides,

00:25:56: on the company side and also at the university side.

00:26:00: How can companies integrated in the German

00:26:03: UDS virtual environment, do you have an idea?

00:26:05: - I have lots of ideas.

00:26:10: And that comes from the rooms where I love to see

00:26:13: people doing workshops here, thinking about

00:26:15: how workshops will work in an hybrid mode.

00:26:18: But also think about how can we help companies

00:26:22: to maybe do that, take their step on the hand,

00:26:26: explore them the possibilities as well as the risks

00:26:30: of digital worlds.

00:26:32: I mean, we discussed IT security,

00:26:33: we discussed data privacy.

00:26:37: And I think it's important to understand that,

00:26:40: or in my understanding and also in my past,

00:26:44: universities or academia and education

00:26:49: and enterprises are not two separate worlds.

00:26:52: I mean, why do we learn and why do we work?

00:26:56: We work and we learn while we work and we learn to work.

00:27:00: This is so highly interconnected.

00:27:03: And I think we're gonna see here much more interconnection,

00:27:08: we're gonna see co-innovation,

00:27:12: and we're gonna see much more of doing things together.

00:27:15: I think what's not gonna work is do something

00:27:18: in the ivory tower and then move it to the economy world,

00:27:21: but really listen to the needs, go in and do like

00:27:24: a process together, starting with the students.

00:27:28: And yeah, this is what we're probably gonna see here.

00:27:32: - We have a lot of upcoming projects here

00:27:35: at the German UDSE on what is your favorite

00:27:38: and what are you excited about?

00:27:40: - Good question.

00:27:42: There are a few things I'm excited about.

00:27:44: So first of all, like now we launched the building,

00:27:47: we had our opening event, so everything is like

00:27:49: in that he will be working on version,

00:27:51: I don't know, 1.0 or something.

00:27:53: So we reached GA.

00:27:55: I think what we're gonna do in the next weeks

00:27:59: is have much more automation.

00:28:03: So for example, there's like this little robot

00:28:06: walking through the ground floor,

00:28:08: what if this robot also could open you the door

00:28:10: if you recognize you?

00:28:11: - And bring the coffee to me.

00:28:14: - Yeah, and to me.

00:28:15: And beside that, from the technology part,

00:28:21: what we aim for in the next month is to have

00:28:24: like a better integration of the single systems

00:28:26: we do have, so everything plays together

00:28:28: and I think that's also like really important

00:28:31: because you can easily build 10, 50 systems

00:28:34: but make them then in the end interconnect

00:28:37: and interoperability and work together.

00:28:39: This is something that we have to work beside

00:28:42: getting all the stuff ready to host our students

00:28:44: and company partners here.

00:28:46: - Jan, I could talk to you even hours and hours

00:28:49: and the time has gone very fast.

00:28:52: So let's summarize our talk with a question.

00:28:57: Let's have a look to the year 2044.

00:29:01: And what is your vision of the university in 20 years?

00:29:06: - So hopefully, or not hopefully,

00:29:09: it's like I guess it's not looking anything like we see

00:29:13: in traditional universities.

00:29:14: So we're gonna have, of course, a lot of onsite,

00:29:18: so not everything gonna be virtual, that's clear,

00:29:21: but we're gonna have much more like project-based,

00:29:25: problem-based work, work together with the industry.

00:29:30: And of course what we're gonna see in the next years

00:29:32: and that already started is that the requirements

00:29:35: for our workforce started to change massively.

00:29:38: So if we wanna follow that, we have to train our people

00:29:43: and that's gonna start in the university,

00:29:45: actually that's gonna start in the schools.

00:29:48: And so the university also maybe not gonna be like this

00:29:51: four or five years prior to put you in the working space

00:29:55: but rather gonna be like a mentor

00:29:58: and then like learning a partner from the beginning

00:30:01: and have much more flexible models, I guess,

00:30:04: starting with things like micro-credentials we also offer.

00:30:08: - Jan, it was a great pleasure talking to you.

00:30:10: Thank you very much for your time.

00:30:12: - You're welcome.

00:30:13: - And the insights of our technical background

00:30:16: of the German UDS.

00:30:17: So thank you very much, Jan.

00:30:20: (upbeat music)

00:30:22: (upbeat music)

00:30:25: (upbeat music)

00:30:28: (upbeat music)

00:30:31: (audience cheering)